]]]]]]]]]]       AIDS CONTROVERSY: COMMENT BY OTHERS     [[[[[[[[[[[
                                                          (2/17/89)
Date: 2/15/1989, 22:16 hours
From: 07656GAED
Regarding comments on HIV and AIDS, esp from Freeman 92037THOM:
In science even proving something doesn't mean that new data won't
upset the apple cart.  Our understanding of AIDS exists in a
theoretical context which posits HIV as the cause or, failing that,
 some other virus or infectious agent.  Thomas suggests that it might
be something else because of lack of proof, and he's right, but I
know of nothing that would support his position so I'm not in-
clined to find it too valuable.  He has logic but no data and
strictly speaking that's enough and it's too bad that scientists
and politicians aren't at all aware of his position for a lot
of resources may be being wasted.  I think all the information
so far points to this being an infectious condition, however, but
I am not doing research.  I think it's too bad that most of those
who are aren't tending to basics but operate on the blind assump-
tion that they have been taken care of or are self-evident.  What
Thomas has to focus on as a scientist and Dr. Orient has to
focus on as a doctor (who may have AIDS patients) are different
things and I think we have a phony conflict going on here in FF.
I'm sure that if Thomas had AIDS patients he'd be very careful.
And I'm sure if he were a single sexually active young woman he'd
also be careful, lack of proof notwithstanding.  His is a narrow
focus.
Brant Gaede

                    *   continued   *  

Date: 2/16/1989, 23:32 hours
From: 90291SEMS
Hi. Uploaded 4 files. 

You will see from the tone of my arguement that I don't try to make 
friends or win popularity contests. If I disagree in this kind of 
forum my goal is to put my foot in the opponents mouth. If you do not 
wish to take that kind of attitude I will understand and stop contri-
buting. The only thing I ask is that you publish my message in its 
entirety as I believe anything else would misrepresent my thoughts.
Thanks for Fort Freedom and hope you are doing well.
Joe Zaychik
                            -  -  -

Comments on AIDS or "Where's the bodies?"

     The only way you can get AIDS is by having whatever it is that 
causes the disease enter directly into your blood system. 
     I do a lot of work with homosexual men and drug addicts. The two 
biggest risk groups. I'm going to suggest a novel proof to establish 
you are not at risk of AIDS from heterosexual contact, even if it is 
promiscuous. The proof is this: A significant percentage, (figure at 
least 25%) of homosexual men are in the closet. Many of them (more 
than 50%) carry on heterosexual relationships. I am not including in 
this group so-called bisexual men. Sexual contact between hetero-
sexuals and homosexuals is much more than the media is willing to 
admit. If  AIDS were as contagious as the public is being led to 
believe the death toll would be in the millions by now.
     Why is there so much hysteria about AIDS? Because of a pragmatic, 
unstated alliance between the fundamental rightists and the avante 
garde leftists. The fundamentalists spread the hysteria to further 
their homophobic agenda. The avante garde left so that it can get 
funding for a group whose support it depends on.
     The last survey I saw on AIDS stated something like 2% of the 
victims were not in any of the high risk groups. With any survey, it 
is wise to ask how the researchers came up with their conclusions? The 
answer is they asked the AIDS victim. I believe that the researchers 
simply do not want to admit that the 2% (1 out of 50) is lying to 
them. I have seen many homosexual men sit in my office and tell me 
that if they came down with AIDS they would never admit, even on their 
deathbed, how they had come down with AIDS. And common sense should 
tell you that if you ask 50 people ANYTHING at least 1 of them will 
lie.
     The kind of sexual contact that puts one at risk for AIDS is anal 
intercourse. I mention this so that it can help to explain how women 
who do not use drugs come down with AIDS. What is not left out by the 
media and the CDC (probably because they don't know) is that many 
bisexual men and homosexual men who have sex with women prefer anal 
intercourse! 
     The [unreadable - Bob Long] Journal of Medicine was really scraping the bot-
tom of the barrel for some excuse to get on the political bandwagon 
when it publish its "proof" that you can get AIDS from heterosexual 
contact. Its evidence was the testimony of a male AIDS victim who 
claimed the only sex he had was with prostitutes and that he did not 
use drugs. One person's unsubstantiated testimony is not proof.
     The basis of my argument is that if AIDS were as contagious as is 
claimed, millions would be dead by now and tens of millions would be 
hospitalized. To translate this in more practical terms: Millions of 
women today have had and are having sex with a homosexual or bisexual 
man and are not aware of it. And millions of men have had or are hav-
ing sex with with those millions of women. If AIDS were transmitted 
through sexual intercourse why aren't most of those millions of men 
and women dead or hospitalized? My question is not meant to be rheto-
rical. I am doing nothing more than applying hysterical claims to 
reality and saying "Where's the bodies?"
     As for operating in space suits: A friend of mine and I joined a 
group of people for pizza. This was the week that Rock Hudson had died 
of AIDS. One of the women at the table was worried about his ashes 
being dumped in the sea because she was afraid the fish would eat the 
ashes and then pass AIDS on to anyone who ate fish. She also was 
advising that people stop going to ballets because she believed that 
most male ballet performers were gay and that the sweat from their 
bodies would contaminate the audience. I destroyed her asinine argu-
ment and my friend and I continued to share pizza with everyone at the 
table. My friend at that time had been diagnosed as an ARC patient.
(Aids Related Complex.) That was about two years ago. He is dead 
today. He died of AIDS. I have held that man in my arms. I have wiped 
his nose and helped him change his undergarments. I have breathed the 
same air he does and shared many a meal with him. I do not have AIDS. 
I do not expect to get AIDS.
     So for those of you who want to spread hysteria, I suggest that 
you do not share a meal with a stranger. Do not kiss a stranger. And 
certainly don't sleep with anyone until they've been tested, at least 
twice with at least 6 weeks between tests. And even then you can't be 
sure. Oh, and don't eat fish, and don't go to ballets.
joe zychik
(Freeman 90291SEMS)  

                         *   continued  *

Dear Mr Zychik:
     No, I don't mind your style, I am not that polite myself. 
However, I cannot see the relevance of your argument. Drs Thomas and 
Orient are arguing whether AIDS is CONTAGIOUS or not. Through the 
bloodstream is one way of making it contagious, and may still not be 
the only one, for your argument assumes that the disease is transmit-
ted by the way you dispute EVERY TIME, which is not necessary to make 
it contagious, and destroys your argument. 'Flue is contagious, but 
very often only one in the family gets it. If your argument were 
valid, half of mankind (or all, maybe) would be killed of by 
influenza.
     Cordially,
     Sysop
                         *     *     *


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